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It seemed to me on reading section 17 4 that that is exactly their intention. If they wanted only police officers to do those things, the bill would specify that enforcement officers may be assisted by police officers. As far as I can see, the intention in the bill is not to have police officers assisting enforcement officers, but to give legal protection to anybody who does so. The example of a locksmith has been given. Is my interpretation correct? I fear that it might be. The issue of accountability and complaint is one of the underpinning concerns that the SPF often asks about.
Where would the public validation or approval be of individuals who would be performing what are fairly intrusive tasks? Enforcement, whether it extends to search, seizure, destruction or whatever, involves intrusive acts. At present, the powers are vested in a very limited number of individuals and they are, in their own right, subject to rigorous scrutiny and validation by bodies that, in effect, act on behalf of the general public.
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First, there is no indication in the bill that ministers would set any standards for those who are qualified as enforcement officers. Secondly, there is no indication of a minimum period of training or the types of person who may be barred from undertaking those activities. There would be no further test if the premises was not a domestic dwelling. An obvious area that we would look at is electronic communications. Electronic equipment could be taken in by a random person, who may well have the skills and experience to undertake forensic examinations of computers, hard drives and devices.
It is a quagmire. I raised with our previous witnesses, who were from the bill team, an area where I consider that there is some confusion. Section 19 1 b , which covers the power to enter and search, says:. The past tense is used there. Section 21 then covers further restrictions on entering houses.
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Apart from the exception in relation to houses, which applies when, as section 21 1 b says,. However, the issue is that the decision comes down to the judgment of the enforcement officer, which is mentioned throughout the bill. They might well take the view that a cup of a certain size is fine but a bigger one is not, which would then raise the issue of removal of the supposedly offending item.
Pop-up shops are a lot more common than they were at the time of the Commonwealth games. I have noticed that they are not covered by the bill, but they might be an issue, especially in the zones that have been identified, such as at the approach to Hampden and in Glasgow city centre. Do you have any recommendations on how to deal with them? Someone who opens such a shop might rent a space for just a week, so five different traders could operate from a single location in the time when the championships will take place.
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Mr Steele, we have touched on your concerns about the enforcement issues, but we have not discussed the potential costs. Once those have been established, if the cost is at the higher end of what Glasgow City Council might be expected to manage, that would surely have implications for Police Scotland. What are your views on that? It is rare for a piece of legislation that is passed by the Parliament not to have a cost for the police service in some shape or form. It looks as though most of the costs under the bill will fall to the council. However, if we get to a stage where police officers are routinely called upon—or are expected to be called upon—to enforce the powers of search and entry or the use of force on individuals, the consequential cost of that would have to be understood.
In my experience, the forecasts of costs that accompany draft pieces of legislation tend to be grossly underestimated rather than anywhere close to reflective of reality. It will be difficult to get a fair assessment of the costs until such time as we see what the regulations look like. If Parliament determines that it does not want to specify any qualifying criteria, training standards or debarred elements for enforcement officers, that will have a beneficial impact on the costs to the police service in that they are likely to be very little.
If the Parliament takes a contrary view, I imagine that the expectation will be that police officers will provide the training and awareness of how to make sure that the enforcement officers stay on the right side of the law. It depends on how far Parliament wishes to go.
You have rightly identified what could happen depending on the situation and circumstances. It is important that we are aware of that, because there could be implications that have not been foreseen, and Police Scotland would have to utilise and implement way to manage the situations.
Does Police Scotland have scenarios for how that might work, perhaps based on what has happened in the past when events of this nature have come along? I share the concerns that you have expressed both in the letter and today about the quagmire that we could enter by creating the hybrid of an enforcement officer, who is more than a local authority officer but not quite a police officer. However, such officers have been used before.
Given that there are resource issues and practical issues in using police officers, what safeguards could you propose that might assist in resolving the problem? You mentioned greater oversight of enforcement officers. Could anything else be done to bolster the safeguards? I wonder whether we may be swapping pay packets. It sounds as though we are being asked to find the legislative fix. I am not sure that the issue is particularly easy. It may be that the concerns about the principles will not be played out in practice, but we would be foolish to rush in and legislate in ignorance of the potential for risks and hazards.
My sense is that, through lots of early advertising about the restrictions that will be in place, most of the areas of conflict—particularly for personal conflict—will be minimised. However, we have to recognise that, although targeting means that advertising in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow, is likely to be seen by Scottish citizens, it is not guaranteed that there would be as much awareness of those limitations among people from other nations who have come to support their national teams.
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A lot can be done with early advertising, particularly for the Scottish element of the event. Once the draw has been made and we know the make-up of the teams that will come to Scotland, it will be appropriate for the city council to engage with the Governments of the visiting nations to make sure that they are similarly aware. It may well be that some literature could accompany the tickets or flight information. However, I cannot get away from the fact that anything that introduces the use of force by a non-police officer is inherently problematic and would create potential for conflict.
Although the measure is intended to take the need for time and effort away from police officers, it is difficult to see that it will do so. The tournament will start in June When does the advertising industry need all the regulations to be in place, to allow it to prepare? In an ideal world, we would like the exemptions to be in the bill so that we have a heads-up now about what to expect and we can make preparations. From a macro point of view, it is not that difficult, but once we drill down, smaller businesses need to be aware of the restrictions that will be in place, and communication might be more of an issue there.
As a network of trade associations, we have great links with the breadth of the industry, but we need time to get the message out in adequate time for people to have appropriate advertising in place. If the exemptions are not in the bill, we will need to know what they are as soon as possible in the new year. It would be really helpful if you could provide that as soon as possible, given the timescales that are involved. I want to go back to ticket touting.
It says that, although touting is. Scotland is, I think, one of four or five of the 12 countries that will be hosting games that have been asked to introduce temporary legislation. That shows that ticket touting is a problem that we might need to tackle through wider legislation in future.
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Mr Steele, you said that you have a problem with the bill in relation to the enforcement of touting legislation, because it relates not just to Scotland but to overseas and online touting. Will you expand on that? If we were to introduce legislation at some point to deal with what is clearly understood to be a problem, would the police service be able to deal with that? The concern is not about the practice, but about enforceability. Whether someone is touting outside a stadium or from a bedroom in the Ukraine, the net effect is that somebody somewhere is paying over the odds for a ticket and someone else is being deprived of the opportunity to get one at face value.
The nature of online crime means that tackling it is resource intensive and the return is minimal. Putting provisions on touting in the bill is laudable, but I add a health warning that we should not necessarily expect miracles to be performed, either by enforcement officers or by the Police Service of Scotland, in bringing to heel ticket touts that operate online. That is my favourite type of question, convener. I think that it is highly unlikely that ticket touting, regardless of its pernicious effect on events and on individuals who lose out, would be considered a high-priority crime for the police service to investigate.
In your letter, you raise concerns about the effect that the section of the bill that deals with trading might have on charities. Earlier this morning, I asked the bill team about the young people in Glasgow who are buskers.
From an enforcement point of view, we certainly do not want to criminalise charities or young people with guitars. How do you see that panning out on the ground? How can we avoid criminalising them? There is that element, which I will return to shortly. However, we must not lose sight of the fact that the nature of charitable giving has changed significantly over the past number of years. For example, it is not unusual for benefactors to bequeath tickets for events such as cup finals as part of charitable fundraising for a completely unrelated entity.
That would appear to be touting, in that it seeks to make a profit for the charity, albeit not for material gain for an individual. That has to be looked at and understood. It would be peculiar if a generous individual was to offer two tickets to, say, a UEFA championship match in Glasgow in order to support a local hospice, and they were bought by an individual in support of the hospice only for a question to be raised about whether the profit that was made amounted to a ticketing offence.
In addition, we need to consider types of charitable giving that take place, particularly around football, that are generally welcomed. For example, there are lots of drives to gather supplies for food banks, and they are very much club led.
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I appreciate that there is a world of difference between individual football clubs and national sporting teams, but in general, football fans are becoming increasingly generous in their support of charitable activities. That is probably one of those unintended elements that could become a feature of the proposed legislation if it was not subject to the helpful scrutiny that the committee is providing. On the point about buskers, when the Commonwealth games were held in Glasgow, were you aware of any youths—particularly kids from the age of eight to 14 or 15—who turned up and started to play their instruments to make some pocket money?
Do you know how they were dealt with? With such a big event taking place next year, young people in particular will want to take part and have that opportunity, and I would not want them to be criminalised or treated with a heavy hand. I do not imagine that they will be, but I hope that they will be dealt with sensitivity, with no possibility of negative treatment. If there is to be more detailed evidence before stage 2, which I suggest will be required, I will be able to address the question about the Commonwealth games.